Cycling BC License Prices

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Roland
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Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Roland »

Cycling BC just announced license prices for 2023 and they are bonkers.

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The cheapest license for an adult is now $117, last year it was $80. I'm not sure the exact number of members we have now, a few years ago it was 300. So, what are we getting for our $35,100+ that we are giving Cycling BC each year? Most members don't race. Is there a cheaper option for insurance. We could pretend to be a triathlon club that just forgot to run or swim and only pay $70 / year. Look for 3rd party insurance.
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Rolf
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Rolf »

The board is giving this a hard look, Roland. We only learned about it when everyone else did. All options are on the table. The fee increase is also not a done deal. CBC members (ie. all of us) will get to vote online between Dec. 7 and 11 to either reject or ratify these proposed fees.

Also:

Cycling BC will be hosting a member Town Hall via Zoom on Tuesday, December 6th at 7 p.m. to review the proposed fee increase and answer your questions.

Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/89595507149?p ... 1ySE1tdz09

Meeting ID: 895 9550 7149
Passcode: 079667


Personally, I have significant concerns that mirror your own. I’m particularly concerned about what impact a 46% fee increase may have on accessibility to our club, as well as the existing value we currently receive from our CBC membership fees. Nothing obliges us to remain affiliated with Cycling BC — but it’s a multi-faceted relationship.

If we can find common ground, I expect the Tripleshot board to issue an observation statement and recommended position on voting. I also hope others share their thoughts here or elsewhere. We will post a reminder to vote next week, in any event.
mfarnham
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by mfarnham »

Hey Roland,

In what follows, I’m not speaking for the Cycling BC (CBC) Board. But since I’m on the CBC board now, I can give you my thoughts on some your (and probably others’) concerns. I would encourage everyone to attend the information session on Tuesday and bring your questions. The increase is ultimately in members’ hands, as a vote is required to pass it. We, the board, simply put forward a recommendation. I want to assure you that we came up with this proposal after 2 significant discussions—one of which was a full meeting scheduled around this question—in which issues such inclusivity were high priorities.

The proposal we put forward is a big increase. I wouldn’t have expected to vote for such a large increase going into the board’s conversation about membership fees, nor did anyone else on the CBC board I suspect. But when we took the time to carefully examine our costs and how they’ve changed since 2019, we realized we wouldn’t be able to maintain services (insurance coverage, races and race support, and youth development) without the proposed increase.

The biggest cost increase CBC is facing comes from insurance, which is a huge budget item and which I believe has more than doubled in the last few years. CBC has a broker who shops around for insurance and they claim this is the best they can do for 24/7 injury coverage and $10m liability on registered group rides and events.

Out of curiosity, I went online and shopped for personal bike riding insurance and the best I could come up with for injury and $1m liability ($10m wasn’t an option) was about $120. If someone can come up with something better, I’d love to know because CBC should know about it. The triathlon gambit is clever but I suspect it wouldn’t fly, as cycling is clearly the riskiest activity out of swim-bike-run when it comes to liability and probably injury as well. Insurers are always happy to point to violations of the insurance contract when looking to deny coverage.

The rest of what CBC does (beyond insurance) has also gotten more expensive, if not at the same rate of increase as insurance. Labour costs, rent, fees paid to contractors, etc. have all risen dramatically since 2019.

I strongly supported the proposed CBC membership increase after reviewing the draft budget for next year and looking at stats on labour cost increases and specific information on the insurance cost increases we’re facing. Basically, taking CBC’s current priorities/service levels and the costs we face as given, I think the proposed fee increase is as close to the “correct” number as we can get, given various uncertainties about how 2023 will actually play out.

You pose a larger question here (as does Rolf) which is essentially, “Do I get value for money from my CBC membership?” A twist on that is “What could CBC be doing differently to serve the cycling community better?” That’s a separate, longer term discussion but one that I think is always useful for Cycling BC to hear from its members on. Perhaps the Tripleshot board could collate input from members and pass that information along to Cycling BC (feel free to copy me). Or show up to Tuesday’s meeting and share your thoughts on that question.

Hope this helps. And thanks for kicking off the discussion. It’s good to see Tripleshot engaged.

Best,
Martin
Curran
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Curran »

Useful to compare to other provinces. Eg. Ontario
https://ontariocycling.org/membership/

If I read it right, $120 just for the insurance part, plus $75-150 for actual licenses...

That being said I do worry about a death spiral if fees go up too much and then people just exit and stop paying drives up fees even more.
Mikael
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Mikael »

Dear all,
I think that this is a very important discussion. While the cost is important, more important in my mind is the original question: what do members and the club get for this payment?

In an earlier life, I requested and received a copy of the CBC insurance policy but I was instructed not to share this policy information with anyone because it was confidential. I did not like that this information was confidential nor that it took many many months and repeated requests to receive this information. I got the distinct impression that my request was not welcomed even though I was at that time a member of the TSC executive.

Nevertheless, my reading of the policy led me to believe that the primary purpose of the insurance was to cover my liability. To me this means that the insurance company will cover my liability in the first instance if the courts finds me to have caused injury through negligence. I am not sure whether or not the insurance company would turn around and look for compensation from me in this situation. A secondary purpose was to provide specified and very limited compensation to me if I was injured (ie. Blindness in one eye was worth a specific number of dollars). The proviso here was that I must assist the insurance companies pursuit of compensation from whoever was responsible for me injury .....

Of course, the coverage would only become relevant after all other insurance options were exhausted including health insurance.

There is some background information that I found useful for a discussion of the laws, liability and relevant court cases (of which there were very few in the context of club riding and group riding).

"Forcese, C., & LaViolette, N. (2014). Every cyclist’s guide to Canadian law. Irwin Law."


"Accessibly written and often humorous, this book is written for those with little or no legal background. Using straightforward and jargon-free explanations, the authors include anecdotes and examples drawn from their own experiences as seasoned recreational and competitive cyclists. Every Cyclist's Guide to Canadian Law will also provide an authoritative reference for lawyers, club directors, coaches, and sporting event planners."

It used to be available in the public library (GVPL). An electronic copy is available through UVic I think.

A second edition is published. I have not read this:

Title Every Cyclist's Guide to Canadian Law, second edition
Author Christopher Waters
Edition illustrated
Publisher Irwin Law, 2022
ISBN 1552216454, 9781552216453

Given that there have been a few serious accidents during our rides I would be very interested in learning about the perspective of those members who were injured. Do these injured members feel that the CBC insurer treated them fairly and with respect?

Of course, there are several members who are lawyers. They are almost as bad as Sociologists for providing definitive answers when I ask ;). In case there is some uncertainty here : I am a sociologist.

Cheers,
Mikael

Ps. I tried to make sense of the different options in Ontario. I came to belive that the cheapest option for adults was $48.00 in 2022.

https://ccnbikes.com/#!/memberships/ont ... membership
Vegan Dave
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Vegan Dave »

Hey all - glad to see this getting discussed. I've compiled a fairly comprehensive page with as much info as I could pull up:

https://abouttheride.ca/cyclingbc2023fees/

I charted all the bigger provinces with their Race and UCI license fees as an example. ;)

This also includes a conversation with Erin from CBC who broke down the expenses (but despite my request to post that to their page, says they'll present it on Tue evening.)

There's a fair bit to unpack, but I think #1 is decoupling the 24/7 insurance. ON has this as an option. It ought to be the same here.

Whatever the costs, passing them on to the membership like this is suicide. It'll result in a significant decline in memberships. It'll ravage the organization.

CBC needs to 'do the work' and cut programs, and really ought to hire a fundraiser (in all honesty Erin has way too much on her plate, and someone ought to be dedicated to this kind of work, can be a part-time role for someone.) It's lazy to dump this on members like this.

What's NOT mentioned is that they're also planning to raise the day license from $12 to $25-35. This will annihilate events like the Island Cup and COTR, and be a huge challenge for one-day events like fondos and gravel, who have MANY one-day participants. This decision is NOT part of the Town Hall, and is something CBC/Erin can decide independently (won't need membership vote), but they NEED to hear that this is NOT acceptable.

Finally, I've put up a very quick survey to collect input from riders to share at the Town Hall - I'm hoping to hit at least 100 entries by Tuesday so it carries some weight. It's already very telling how people feel - like with the 24/7 insurance, nearly all have voted to decouple it so far.

The survey is at the top of the link above. (And I'm dumbfounded CyclingBC doesn't do surveys like this themselves. They're blind to their members interests based on this so far.)

Hoping TS can send this out to members (email list and SPOND), so we can present a stronger case to CyclingBC. I feel they're letting us down big time with these decisions.
Roland
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Roland »

In 2019, Cross on the Rock averaged 401 people per race. In 2021 it was 335. Not bad considering there was there was still pandemic restrictions and we required proof of vaccination. 2022 it was down to 291 people per race. Hardest hit was our intermediate category, people from 20 - 40. With the price of everything going up, I think bike racing is just become less of an option for people, especially those who just race casually. We need those people for grass roots events like COTR.

One day licenses going up to $35 will just kill it. Nobody is going to pay $62 for a 30 - 40 minute race. Especially a family -- maybe the kids who are into it will still race, but not the parents who 'just race because they are there anyway'.
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Vegan Dave
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Vegan Dave »

Don't you dare threaten us with facts, Roland!! ;)

Another point that really irks me with all this: the vast majority of the membership will be expected to vote with very little information.

Some of us will attend the meeting, sure, but most won't. CyclingBC doesn't seem to have any plans to actually share relevant information on their page/website. Maybe they will post a video of the meeting afterwards...so now people have to sit through a video of a meeting to get some info?

All the information people have been asking for should already be on the site. We should all have the opportunity to be informed before the meeting even begins. We should all be able to DISCUSS that information before the meeting begins, rather than being limited to learning it on the spot, and having to digest, scrutinize and critique it all on the spot. And over video conferencing no less. And no doubt some relevant info will be requested, but unavailable, because it's on the spot. This just isn't a good or fair process.
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Lister Farrar
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Lister Farrar »

Thanks all for the discussion. Especially Martin for digging into the price increase in the insurance market. That’s probably the most important fact right there.

Dave, why is “decoupling” important? Do we have insurance we don’t need?

The potential one day license increase does worry me. The crossfondo had over 200 one day licenses purchased. Can’t help think this will limit entries.

I guess one view is that one day licenses are a way to sample the sport. And not really meant for people riding week after week.

However, while we’re talking about bringing people into the sport, CBC’s IRide/Hop on program (bike lessons for classes in elementary school) has little to no effect on membership.

So we spend money delivering free/cheap services to teachers and students (because it makes us look good?), don’t think about how to get them to join, but charge extra to those who actually want to try it?

I do believe there is an obligation on all of us to help pay for the system that administers the sport. We won’t have volunteers if we don’t insure them. But I wonder at the choice of programs for a member based organization, and who is asked to pay.
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Vegan Dave
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Vegan Dave »

Hey Lister!

> Dave, why is “decoupling” important? Do we have insurance we don’t need?

Yup, I've tried to outline this on my page. There's 'extra' 24/7 insurance/liability coverage that is baked into our licenses that cover us anytime on the bike, this was added in 2019 I think, when it made the first big jump in cost. A lot of people already have secondary (or more) insurance, and many others hardly ride (basically doing a few races, and a few rides, and are quite casual.) So it's really quite unnecessary for a lot. My survey is showing this, with numbers tilted pretty heavily against it.

Ontario has this as an add-on option, which is great. But it's $25-50 that we all pay extra for without a choice.

As an added level of consideration, I've just learned there's 'Mass Participation' insurance options from CyclingBC. The Island Cup uses it:

https://cyclingbc.net/organizers/event- ... ed-events/

You just pay a fee per rider per event, which is in the $3 range:

https://cyclingbc.net/organizers/event- ... istration/

No licenses required. You just bake it into the registration fee, and I guess report it to CyclingBC and pay up afterwards.

Been chatting with Norm and Trev about these for COTR and VCL, not sure why they couldn't switch over. For the VCL it does mean no opportunities for 'upgrade points'. But how many of the races counted anyway? It would mean you could do most island races without a license at all. You'd end up paying probably $5 'extra' per event, and could be a better investment locally than the $120/170 Prov Race license. (24 races x $5 = $120.)

Could be an option to bypass the racing part this whole mess, locally at least.
joannafox
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by joannafox »

Thanks everyone so far for all the research and comments. This has been top of mind for us as TS CrossFondo organizers as the rumour of a raise in one-day licence fees is a worry to the continuity and growth of the TSCF.

Very curious about this "mass participation" option that Vegan Dave mentions. In the 6 of 7 years that I have been the TS CrossFondo registrar, I have never been advised by CBC that we didn't need to collect one-day licence forms & fees, later to be changed to directing riders online via CCN. CBC happily took the $$ and never suggested otherwise.

Additionally, there seems to be conflicting information on the two links posted by Vegan Dave (not his fault I am sure....it's just the CBC website).

The first link he posted says "Cycling BC recognizes that mass participation events cannot feasibly require all participants to purchase a Cycling BC licence", and directs you to contact Cory for more info. Cory no longer works at CBC, but it was Cory who suggested to me for 2021 TSCF that we could get our non-licensed riders to get a one-day licence online via CCN, vs filling out paper forms, collecting the $$ and then sending it to CBC. And TSCF is mass participation with 50% of the riders needing the one-day option. So no suggestions from Cory that "TSCF is a mass participation event and you don't need to ask riders to get a one-day license".

The second link refers to 'sanctioned' and 'registered' events, and suggests "One-day event insurance available for unlicensed riders", and more info contact Thomas Darcy (who replaced Cory, sort of). Thomas is who I dealt with to get CCN to set up the one-day licence portal for TSCF 2022. Again, no mention of "TSCF is a mass participation event and you don't need to ask riders to get a one-day license". And we pay a sanction fee.

So, hmm; interested to hear more about this at the Town Hall, as I'm sure it will come up from event organizers. I'd love to require non-licensed riders to pay only $3 (not sure where that number came from) vs the $12 adults paid in 2022 and $7 for U16 youth.
Vegan Dave
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Vegan Dave »

Phew! Glad we cleared everything up, I'm ready to vote!
Vegan Dave
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Vegan Dave »

I've updated the post with post-meeting thoughts:

https://abouttheride.ca/cyclingbc2023fees/

Joanna, hope you don't mind I referenced you personally!
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Rolf
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Rolf »

Multiple attendees at Tuesday’s Town Hall raised questions about CBC’s Hop On program of subsidized skills programs for schoolchildren. Both the CEO and board Chair batted these questions away with assurances the Hop On program “pays for itself”.

This answer suggests CBC receives dedicated sponsorship, donations, or program fees that completely cover the full cost of the Hop On program. It also implies that a reduction or outright elimination of that program would do nothing to address the organization’s substantial current budget shortfall (for which the massive fee hike is claimed to be necessary.)

So why did Cycling BC send out a special plea this afternoon to every family who participated in the Hop On program this year, asking them to vote (by tomorrow) for the proposed fee increase? As an aside: I wonder if every family who had a kid registered in the Hop On program is an actual *member* of Cycling BC — and if they will therefore be subjected to the proposed minimum annual fee of $117?

Can you answer any of these questions or correct any of my assumptions above, Martin?
Roland
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by Roland »

Rolf wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:03 pm So why did Cycling BC send out a special plea this afternoon to every family who participated in the Hop On program this year, asking them to vote (by tomorrow) for the proposed fee increase? As an aside: I wonder if every family who had a kid registered in the Hop On program is an actual *member* of Cycling BC — and if they will therefore be subjected to the proposed minimum annual fee of $117?
Individuals are required to be registered as a 2022 Cycling BC member to vote. Online voting will happen via CCN.
My understanding is that only Cycling BC members can vote. So either Hop On parents are members and pay fees or asking them to vote was pointless because they can't?
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mfarnham
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by mfarnham »

Hi Rolf.

My understanding is that HopOn pays for itself because it has dedicated grants that Cycling BC applies for to fund it. I also believe that—but it’s probably best to check with the Cycling BC office about this—HopOn riders pay for a “mini-membership” that insures them for the length of the Hop-On program. Whether this attaches to a full-year voting membership, I don’t know. I’m a volunteer on a governance board (unlike Tripleshot’s operational board) where the board gives direction to the organization, but does not manage day-to-day operations. The executive director is generally the best person to ask about such details, whereas board members may be able to lend insights into questions about broad direction, etc.

I’d be happy to chat to you about what I know what I don’t. You have my number and email and frequently contact me off line about many other cycling issues, so I’m a bit puzzled by your choice to publicly call me out here (and also on Spond). Publicly calling people out is performative politics, as is insinuating corruption without having gathered all the relevant facts. We live in an era of performative politics, but that doesn’t mean we should invite it into Tripleshot. I’d encourage people to remember the value of what we have here, with our usual kind ways of communicating with each other. We can all disagree about things without shouting and without making things personal.

Just as my post above explained my position on the membership fee question and treated those in opposition as thinking and acting in good faith, I’d encourage others to do the same. I’ve happily answered people’s questions about these issues offline, but I’ve stayed away from public posting since the posts--including on Spond--took a decidedly personal turn.

Martin
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Re: Cycling BC License Prices

Post by gwpye »

Good day all!

I posted the comments and opinions below to Spond yesterday and thought best to share them here on the Fourm too.

The comments and opinions below are mine alone.

To be up front I voted a HARD NO on CBC’s proposed fee increase.

While I fully appreciate the need for insurance both individual and group (for events), in my opinion, after attending the town hall on Tuesday, the real problem with CBC’s proposal is not a question of insurance but a question of fiscal management. CBC is asking us to ratify a 46% increase to our annual membership fees! With the average annual rate of inflation of approximately 6.9% in 2022 (the highest in 4 decades) the fee increase CBC is proposing is over 6.5 times the rate of inflation. That alone is poor fiscal management on CBC’s part.

From what was presented at Tuesday’s town hall by CBC and how they answered the questions that were posed to them by membership (or should I say the lack of answers to those questions)- it became very clear that CBC has not done their homework and investigated potential areas to cut operating cost nor have they forecasted expected cost cutting measures in 2023 in order to maintain an affordable membership fee for everyone across the province. Essentially, they were late out of the gate budgeting their operating costs for 2023 (maybe from a neglect to actually take care of their ballooning operating costs a few years ago) and now they are panicking; and putting those fees on the backs of the membership.

If we look at our club; 80% of TS annual membership fees go to CBC but TS gets nothing in return and 100% (20% of your annual membership fees) of our club activities are funded from our $30 fees (what TS charges members to ride and fund our events). The truth is our membership gets nearly zero return from the $120 they give to CBC.

In addition- CBC’s consultation on this fee increase was abysmal. It’s clear to see why, because they were super uncomfortable in attempting to answer questions at the town hall and they were uncomfortable because they had not done their homework. Quit frankly- we as the membership should not except poor fiscal management as a reason to increase our annual fees.

Unfortunately- due to what I can only see as fiscal mismanagement and a general lack of foresight- CBC has not given clubs or individuals time to study the associated risks with this proposed fee increase. VOTE NO- and send CBC back to work. We deserve better!
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